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Welcome to Painful Lessons Podcast. My name is Tyler Ramsey.

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This is Painful Lessons, and we have a guest today, a guest that I'm very excited about. His name is Armie Hammer.

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He is a close friend of mine, and I love the guy.

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And he is, I think, a dream guest for this show.

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When I started Painful Lessons, I wanted it to be a podcast about inspiring stories from painful lessons.

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I wanted it to be a way that people could learn from the mistakes of others or even the victories of others.

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But Armie has a very

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unique story in that he has experienced an

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incredibly, incredibly high fall

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from the top, a lifestyle that most

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people dream of, a lot of

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the ideal things, a fancy

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life, a wonderful family, an incredible career in Hollywood, something that some people only dream of.

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And he, as a result of some things that happened in his life, he has managed to fall all the way to rock bottom.

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And he somehow has developed a better attitude than he had before as he's been climbing up from that.

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He has impressed me with a resilience that I would call a superpower.

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He has managed to develop

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a perspective that I think you can only have if you've been humbled in a very severe way.

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And I think that anyone going through anything can learn from him.

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And I'm very excited to talk to him. So, Armie Hammer, thank you so much for agreeing to do this.

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Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. you had a fantastic career in Hollywood.

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You were in some of my favorite movies, Man from Uncle, Social Network. You were preparing to be in some romantic comedy for a fortune.

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You were getting ready to produce and star in a killer series that sounded amazing.

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You also lost access to your kids.

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You're a great father, and I know you see them a lot, But it's a huge deal to all of a sudden lose the full access that you have when you're in a family.

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You lost your family. You went from being guest of honor at everyone's table to, I hope you don't mind if I just tell one kind of example.

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You were invited to a wedding. And you were in the wedding.

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and right before the wedding started you were asked to stand apart from any of the photographs

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yeah and that must have been a crushing

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thing yeah um you that's that's the

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best example of how he's went from guest of honor to being hey listen you can be here but just don't be in the photographs because you've become very controversial.

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So you got canceled in Hollywood.

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I know you will say that you have behavior that you regret or that you're incredibly embarrassed about,

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but the consequences have seemed very severe.

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And I would be remiss if I didn't say as,

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well, one, as your close friend, but also as someone who has been close to you through a lot of this,

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I have seen incredible discrepancies between what has been put out into the public versus what I have seen and know to be the truth.

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And it fills me with rage. And

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I think that we it would be easy for us

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to dive in to all of these discrepancies

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and to focus on you making sure that you get your truth out in a lot of these accusations and everything.

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But that's not what this interview is. This is and what the only reason you said yes is because I asked you to be of service.

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I said, I think that someone can learn from the struggles that you have experienced and the amazing way that you have developed an incredible attitude.

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You seem happier and more well-balanced now than you were before you went through everything.

4:42

Yeah, by far, yeah. Um, is there, I want to make sure we cover everything that is involved in the recovery from that place.

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So is there, let me just start with this. Is there,

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is there any, what has been the most helpful thing

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for you, um, to stand up and say, I'm going forward and I'm going to do it with a smile on my face.

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yeah you know um it's it's

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really tough to answer that question in kind of a concise way because there's

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been three and a half years now of painful

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lessons and that's three and a half years

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of wisdom gleaned from them so to kind of put

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that down into a soundbites it's it's really tough you know because in the beginning i was learning lessons about sort of acceptance and just having to

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deal with whatever the fuck is going on and deal with it in a way where I don't cause more wreckage or more damage either to myself, to my kids.

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Um, you know,

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when, when all of this really kind of started for me, it, it felt like I was in a tornado, you know, it felt like the only thing I could do was cover my head and protect my neck.

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Um, even though I had instincts of lashing out, even though I wanted to go out there and be like, this is crazy.

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Like, what is everyone talking about? Like, you know, I mean, there were things that people were saying about me that just felt so outlandish.

6:22

Cannibal. Yeah, that I was a cannibal. You know, like, I mean, it's now I'm able to sort of look at it with a sense of distance and perspective and be like, that's hilarious.

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like people called me a cannibal and

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everyone believed them they're like yep that guy

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ate people and you're just like what

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like what are you talking about do you know what you have to do to be

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a cannibal you have to eat people like how how

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how am i going to be a cannibal like it's it it was

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bizarre right i i don't i don't but here's what i will say about it even in the indiscrepancies

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even in the whatever

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it was that people said whatever it

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was that happened I'm now at a place in

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my life where I'm grateful for every

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single bit of it I'm I'm actually now at a place where I'm really grateful for it because where I was in my life before all of that stuff happened to me

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I didn't feel good. I never felt satisfied. I never had enough.

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I never was in a place where I was happy with myself, where I had self-esteem.

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I never knew how to give myself love.

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I never knew how to give myself validation, but I had this job where I was able to get it from so many people that I never had to learn how to give it to myself.

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If ever I was feeling, if ever I was feeling shitty about myself, I'd go on Instagram and look at the comments under a selfie that I posted.

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And people would be like, you're so great. You're so this, you're so that. And I'd be like, yeah, okay, that feels good.

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But I was a black hole, you know, no matter how much

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compliments, no matter how much adoration,

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no matter how much whatever people were throwing my way, as soon as it went past the event horizon and into me, it was a black hole where it just

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disappeared nothing stuck and i didn't

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feel good about myself um but

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i had this tap that i could turn and get

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all of that and when that tap ran dry

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and i mean it didn't just run dry instead of adoration or whatever it started running with just hate hate hate like on a global scale hate

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it was a crisis a

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spiritual crisis an emotional crisis and

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the way i saw it was

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i have two options here i can either let this

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destroy me or to the point of your podcast i can use this as a lesson now at the time i didn't have the wherewithal or frame of mind to understand that this was a lesson

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but now being not

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only removed from the initial chaos of

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it but also having learned everything that i've learned

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as a result from it i look at it now and i

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go you know what like it was awful and i wouldn't wish

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that on my worst enemy but for

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the people in my life that i truly love i hope some version preferably smaller than what i went through would happen to them as well so they could learn everything that I've learned and I feel great about it now.

9:49

Interesting. Yeah. There's a, there's a great saying where they say, you know, pain is the cornerstone of spiritual growth, right?

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Like if you're comfortable and you're just existing and everything is easy,

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if that happens to a human being, you become veal, you become soft, you become just like this delicate little thing.

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But when you get an anvil dropped on your head, it wakes you up real quick.

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I like when you call, I like that you call it veal. The veal seems to me the, what you really want to avoid turning into.

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But here's the question. Can some, is it possible for someone to develop this type of resilience without suffering extreme pain?

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Is there a program?

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Like I know that I'm in a program, you're in a program. I know that part of the goal of that is a daily practice to make sure that you don't,

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that day, turn into veal and let small wins blow you down.

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Maybe, but I don't, I mean, I don't know anybody who goes into any sort of program without hitting bottom.

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I think that that's an essential part of this. True. Like, why would you do this if you didn't have to?

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You know, like no one voluntarily goes, my life's going great. You know what I'd like to do? Enter into a 12-step program.

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Yeah, yeah. Like, you don't need it. Like, it's just, that's not what it's for. You know, it's like you kind of have to hit bottom.

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And everybody will. and it's interesting you know i mean suffering

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pain these

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are guaranteed in life

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yeah you will go through hard shit it's

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the only thing that's promised in every major religion

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is that suffering you're going to

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suffer there's going to be hard shit whether it's loss of family members whether it's a loss of a career, whether it's your own physical health.

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You know, Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung talk about deaths as a sort of transitory phase in your life.

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You're going to experience a death. Sometimes you experience multiple deaths in one lifetime, different careers ending, different whatever.

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You might move to a different place. The version of you that was here has died and you've now gone somewhere else.

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In my case, it was an ego death, a career death, all of these deaths I experienced.

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But, you know, that becomes part of what Joseph Campbell called the hero's journey.

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The hero, and I'm not saying that I'm a hero, I'm using Joseph Campbell's words, the hero must die so the hero can be born again.

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If you don't experience these deaths, you're going to just keep going with whatever that life is.

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But if you can access the idea of death as a transitory phase into the next part of your life, then you end up being grateful for all of these little micro deaths.

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And I'm really lucky that my death wasn't a physical death because the path that I was on before, you know, I was burning the candle pretty hard on both ends.

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And, you know, there's only a couple different ways that that story ends.

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And I'm really grateful that it's almost like a neutron bomb went off in my life, right?

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It killed all the people. It killed me. It killed my ego.

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It killed all the people around me that I thought were my friends that weren't.

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All of those people, boom, in a flash, went away. But the buildings were still standing. I'm still here.

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I still have my health. And I'm really grateful for that. I have one thing that I think that I should apologize for.

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and um when

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everything was going crazy right and and

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there was accusation after accusation after accusation

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and it felt like there in there's one

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month where it felt like you were getting hit with cannonballs

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every day every day every day and

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um whether it was like a cannibal thing or and

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and sometimes i knew because i was right there or i had or was just very clear about all the information I knew that there were things that were said that I was positive were untrue.

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And factually, I was just and I would come to you

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and with all the rage that I had and I would try to pump up your rage and be like, attack, fight.

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And I think that that isn't the role of a good friend.

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And I think that if anything, I think the one thing that has worked for you is that you have managed to deal with all of this without holding a severe amount of resentment.

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That's a miracle. Yeah, I mean, there is no apology needed if you feel like you have to make it.

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Apology accepted. But, you know, I wouldn't say that that's necessarily true for a couple reasons.

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one like there was a sort of there's

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an aspect of that where there is a good friendship

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in there where it's like i'm on your side and like

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this makes me angry and that's always appreciated especially

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when it felt like everyone was turning

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against me to have someone in your corner felt really good so like i i do appreciate that and and the other thing that doesn't feel necessarily

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true is the idea that I didn't have any resentments you know it's like

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I had a shitload of resentments against everyone, against institutions, against myself.

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I was chock full of resentments because I feel like that's a very natural human reaction.

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When you feel like something awful is happening to you,

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you get angry about it um but

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but you know through work that i've done i've

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come to realize that those aren't going to do me any good anyway like

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i'm not going to get through something because i have

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a resentment i'm not going to feel better because i have a resentment you know it's like that whole idea that having a resentment against someone is like drinking poison and hoping that they get sick.

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Right. So it's like, I can be chock full of resentment and it's not going to change the situation.

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So why not do some work to let these resentments go?

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And some of them were extremely difficult to let go of.

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Some I still wrestle with to this day, but

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when they pop up now, I have tools, um, and things that I can do to sort of

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like process them um because ultimately

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it's it's not going to help me and and again

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like if i go back to the idea that whatever

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was said whatever happened whoever

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was involved they were all in

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a sort of grand cosmic sense elements

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of me learning the lessons that i had to learn anyway so instead of being resentful towards these people, maybe there's a way I can be grateful for it.

17:10

We have exactly the same.

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Well, we have close to the same amount of time and sobriety in recovery.

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We each have three years plus and you have nine more days than me.

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That bugs me. Would you say you have a resentment about that?

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I wouldn't say I have a resentment, but there's something that's negative. There's a competitiveness that's negative.

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That if you all of a sudden fell off the wagon or you, there would be a minute where I go, oh, man, now I'm beating him.

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And I go, oh, it's too bad. I appreciate the support, Tyler. That's what friends are for.

17:51

I don't want you to, but there would be a second of, oh, geez. Because I got a DoorDash last night of just a bottle of vodka.

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Was that you? Yeah. DoorDash strippers and vodka. Yeah.

18:02

Okay, so we – I know we're both in a program, and I want to know how valuable a program is for you or if there are other things.

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So we both checked into a rehab at the same time.

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You went to one place, and maybe you want to talk about it, maybe you don't. I went to a place that's a very Christian rehab.

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It's like the most hard, strict, hardcore place around.

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but fix me and gave me the spiritual awakening that you hope to have.

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So what works, what's working for you?

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Because you, your life had become unmanageable and you had to reach out to a higher power and get help.

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So what's working for you now? What saved you?

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Yeah, the, the, the two treatment centers we went to were very different. You

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know, mine was very much a sort of like dual diagnosis place where they deal with addiction issues, which I have been afflicted with my entire life, as have you.

19:09

But there was also an emotional and psychological aspect of mine where the focus was, yes, you have these maladaptive coping mechanisms.

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When you're angry, you drink or use drugs or use certain process addictions to make yourself feel better.

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When you feel good, you drink or you use drugs or use certain process addictions because you deserve it.

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So it's like you have to, I

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had to specifically get to the root cause of why, why do I have these maladaptive coping mechanisms?

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Do I need to look at my early childhood? Do I need to look at my, you know, teenage years?

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Do I need to look at what's happening in my life? What is this core wound inside of me?

20:02

and it's sort of like a tap root of a plant or a tree.

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There's one tap root that goes the deepest and it gets the water and it searches and it finds it.

20:19

Your addiction, my addiction, had that same sort of tap root

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and I had to figure out what that tap root was

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Because if I could get in there and cut that taproot,

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I could get to the source of what or why I was using any sort of addictive behavior, which I was using multiple.

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So for me, it was about actually going internal.

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I always say that it's the analogy would be you show up to one of these places and they go, how long are you going to be here?

20:54

And you go 30 days. and they go no you're not

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yeah trust me you're gonna be here a little longer than that and you go nope

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i just need a rinse cycle like get me in get

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me out i'll be fine and they go great and we'll see you in six months

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kind of thing right so i i had to check

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that preconceived notion at the door i was like i'm

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here like these issues in my life have been behind the wheel and they've been driving and every single time they're behind the wheel the car crashes right metaphorically speaking, right?

21:25

So I need to say, I'm here as long as it takes to get into this.

21:32

And they go, good. Because what we're going to do is

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we're going to take a chainsaw and we're going to cut you open and split you wide and get in there and figure out why and figure out what makes you tick like this.

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Because there's a cog in your machine that's off and we need to figure out what it is.

21:51

And if you're only here for 30 days, we don't have time to cut you open, get in there, figure it out, close you up and let you heal.

21:58

So I needed more time for that because it turns out there was a lot. You know, there was a lot in there that I had to work through.

22:05

What was the main, like when you say the taproot, what was the main taproot?

22:10

Was it the Hansy priest or was that the, not to make jokes about it. Yeah, no, no, no.

22:16

I can laugh about it now, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, there was sexual abuse when I was a kid.

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There were certain ways that I was raised that were not my fault. Yeah.

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But even when something's not your fault, it doesn't mean it's not your responsibility. And I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus.

22:38

You know, I believe that a lot of people who end up wounded from their family of origin,

22:47

a lot of times like their families are just doing the very best that they can yeah

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the families are are are awesome doing the best

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they can yeah and they're you know sometimes you

22:56

just have a kid who's really sensitive yeah who's really sensitive and that

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was me you know and it's it's it's sometimes

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a lot for parents to deal with well it's so interesting when you talk even when you talk about your parents it's like because i i i know your parents i they're i think they're the best, the absolute best.

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Your mom, your mom helps me develop a relationship with God that is the most important thing to me. I love it.

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And then your dad was maybe one of the greatest personalities and, and most vibrant figures and was in many ways, a father figure of mine.

23:32

And I just, and I, and he has died recently and it was, um, and he died of brain cancer.

23:40

It was so quick. And you had to deal with that, man. I loved your dad.

23:47

He was so, he was the best. Yeah. Jeez. What an amazing guy.

23:50

But that's that just as a quick aside, that's

23:54

also one of the beautiful benefits that came out of everything that happened to me, you know, um, you can only connect the dots looking backwards, right?

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So everything in my life falls apart. I lose all my representation.

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I lose all of my work. I lose everything, right? At the time, I think this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

24:15

But when I look at it now with a sense of perspective

24:18

and I'll be at a much healthier perspective, I'm able to look at things like for the last couple of years, I've taken my kids to school every single day.

24:28

I've picked them up every single day from school. I drive them around. I take them to what they need to do.

24:34

And then I take them home to their mom, you know, at least when I'm in town, I do this. And then best kids, the best.

24:41

I love my kids more. Yeah, I love my kids. They're amazing. But with my dad, too, you know, he got sick.

24:48

I showed up at his house one day and he, there was, there was just blood all over his house.

24:55

And I walk into his bedroom and he's, he's laying on his bed naked and he's talking to his mom who died probably 12 years prior.

25:02

And I was like, what the fuck is going on?

25:06

So I, I put clothes on him and I drove him to the hospital and they immediately put him in for a CAT scan and they found a tumor in his brain, the size of a grapefruit.

25:15

And I was then able to, for the last year of his life, take care of him.

25:21

I changed his diapers. I cooked food for him. I took him to doctor's appointments.

25:26

I showed up as a son, as I should have shown up for my father.

25:32

If I had been working for those three and a half years, like I was working before, I would have been gone for 10 months a year.

25:38

I would have missed the entire thing. Instead, I got to sit there with my dad until he had cognitively declined to the point where we couldn't do this anymore.

25:47

But I got to sit there and have the conversations with him and tell him like, you know, dad, I'm, I'm going to be okay.

25:55

Like it's okay. And we talked about his fear of death.

26:00

We talked about his regrets and I got to be there and hold that space for my dad.

26:06

And I would have never done that if I was still working. I would have been too self-involved. You would never. I would have never done it.

26:14

I would have never done it. And it's interesting, right?

26:18

This is yet another thing that's come out of this is, you know, when I lost my dad, there was a lot of sadness.

26:26

Even though for most of my life, we were close, but we weren't that close.

26:30

That one year did so much to repair our relationship in so many different ways.

26:36

that when he passed, there was obviously sadness that he passed, but there was no regret about how I spent that time.

26:46

Cause I truly believe that sadness is something that will fade,

26:51

but a regret of how you spent your time is not. That's true.

26:54

Regret of how you spent in those last kind of days, man, it's like anyone who's going through that, you always tell them,

27:05

suck it up, go over there, say things that are really uncomfortable. Yeah. Get in their face. Yeah.

27:12

Do everything that you probably don't want to do. Yeah. And you will never regret it. Never.

27:19

And then my stepdad died before he, your father died, right? No, after. After.

27:26

Because I remember we were both going through this at the same time. And then I remember going over to see your father so often. Yeah. Yeah.

27:33

You shut up all the time. Man, what a gosh, your parents, both your parents, total legends, total legends. I just love them.

27:42

They but it is fantastic that you look at this as a blessing.

27:47

There's something I think they call it the gift of desperation that

27:50

all of a sudden so many beautiful things happen because you get so desperate that you reach out in different ways or it's really spectacular.

28:02

are the um was

28:06

there you i think you've discussed this before but

28:10

there was a point where you

28:13

were like i can't handle this i'm just going to end this

28:16

and yeah i read about it in an

28:19

article yeah how did you what like can you talk at all about that and then how did like how did you then bounce

28:29

higher than that so there

28:32

were a lot of times where i thought i can't take

28:35

this anymore like this is too much this is more

28:39

stress than a human being has ever been evolved

28:42

to deal with you know i mean for 300

28:46

000 years of homo sapien evolution the

28:49

most stressful thing that could happen would be you know a blight is

28:53

on our crops or you know the the planting season was ruined by weather

28:59

yeah like that would be the most stressful thing a human being

29:02

would have to deal with but now with the proliferation of information

29:05

and social media and all this like it's just the inundation of stress is i i genuinely believe more than human beings are capable of dealing with

29:12

And I was there and I was getting just hate when I was getting hate before I knew how to give myself love.

29:23

So it just went right in. Right. Oh, got it.

29:26

So there were points where I was just like, I can't take this anymore.

29:31

And I hit really dark, low points.

29:35

there was a time where I was standing on the shore

29:38

and I just looked out at the ocean and I thought yep this

29:42

is it and I just swam out really fucking

29:46

far and I thought you know what like I'm I'm done like

29:49

there's nothing back there for me and I got out really far

29:52

and then was just laying there and I mean it's kind of like a half-assed suicide attempt you know but like I was there And I was in it and it seemed like the only option for me.

30:04

And then an image of my kids popped into my head, standing on the shore saying, where's dad? And I was like, I can't do that to my kids.

30:11

So I swam back. But this is right when I had gotten sober.

30:17

But when I got sober, all of my coping mechanisms for how to deal with feeling like shit went away.

30:26

but the stress and the things

30:30

that made me feel like shit were still there right

30:33

so i had no tools how to deal with them because like the

30:36

only tool i had was also killing me and making it worse so i gave

30:39

that up so now i got nothing and and

30:42

and and so basically what happened is is like i

30:46

had to come to terms with the fact that sometimes you're just gonna feel like shit and i still have days where i

30:54

wake up and I just feel like shit you know I have a therapist who I've worked with for years who's been amazing.

31:01

And one of the things she says to me is, addicts are the only group of people on the planet who feel like they deserve to feel good every day.

31:09

As opposed to just being like, you know what, I feel like shit today. That is interesting. Yeah. It's like, I feel like shit today. Okay, what are you going to do about it? Nothing.

31:18

I just feel like shit. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. that little

31:22

thing took me years to understand that

31:25

i can feel like shit and i don't have to do anything about

31:28

it i can just sit and allow myself to

31:32

feel like shit because a lot of times the resistance to

31:35

the disturbance is the actual disturbance so

31:39

you saying i feel like shit i feel like shit i feel like shit is

31:42

way worse than just being like you know what i feel like shit

31:45

what are gonna do i don't know go for a walk it

31:48

really it really was i there was a period where i thought

31:54

first there i remember thinking that

31:57

there was a 50 50 chance you would kill yourself and

32:00

it was it was the period where it

32:03

was i mean it was just it just didn't let up you know at one point you're getting a call from an agent and they and he says uh we you know

32:12

they're very nervous about this JLo movie because of the stuff that's coming out.

32:16

And then you're like, oh, man, this is going to I'm sure this will work out. And I remember trying to pump you up after each thing.

32:23

And then even that was exhausting. And then, oh, man, now you lost that movie.

32:28

But, you know, that's probably not going to affect this other TV show because, you know, that's not shooting for a little while. And then, oh, my gosh, you also lost that TV show.

32:35

Oh, my gosh. And then and then you and I had just pitched. It's like the best meeting we've ever had.

32:41

We pitched that documentary to Apple about runway modeling.

32:45

And then we got a call from that guy. He's like, no, that's not going to work out.

32:50

And all the other projects you had with them is not going to work out.

32:53

And just even having a taste of the loss, I'm like, oh, my, this is overwhelming.

33:01

Okay, if I am looking for guidance, there are three sources that I go to.

33:09

One is the Bible. And geez, you can have a better guide than David from the Bible, who is, I mean, just the king of making mistakes for himself.

33:20

And then I also am crazy about Russell Brand's book about recovery.

33:29

In many ways, that's my Bible for recovery.

33:34

And I can't I could I'm so in love with that. the

33:38

audiobook is spectacular and then i also

33:41

am nuts about the

33:45

stoic philosophies and the guy that breaks

33:48

them down so well is ryan holiday and i also love um meditations from marcus aurelius

33:56

sure is okay so and it seems all that stuff is look a lot of stuff that happens to you you can't really affect, but you can change how you respond and how you were.

34:07

Okay. So I'm curious, what are books that you lean on?

34:13

I mean, I know both of us have gone to church together and everything.

34:16

It's like, what books do you lean on and maybe you'd recommend? It changes, right?

34:21

Like when I was in the thick of it, the books that I would say really helped me more than anything else are When Things Fall Apart by Pima Chodron.

34:31

That one, I mean, I listened to that on audio tape for hours a day and I'd get to the end and I would start it back over again.

34:41

Another one is called Zen and the Art of Happiness. And it sort of posits the idea that everything that happens to you is exactly what is supposed to happen to you.

34:52

You might not see that in the moment, but you will. it's kind

34:55

of like that uh story of the chinese farmer

34:58

right he's out in the field with his son plowing the

35:01

field with a horse the horse breaks loose from the plow and

35:04

runs away yeah the son looks at the father and goes this is the worst thing

35:07

that ever happened to us and the father goes we'll

35:10

see the next day the horse comes back and it's got two wild horses with it the son looks at the horses and goes we now have three horses this is the best thing that ever happened to us

35:21

and the dad goes we'll see the next day the son

35:24

is trying to break one of the horses in training and is

35:27

on top of the horse and the horse kicks him off the son falls and breaks his

35:30

leg the son goes i can't help you in the field anymore

35:33

this is the worst thing that is ever going to happen to us and

35:36

the dad goes we'll see the next day a representative from the chinese military comes and says we have a conscription notice every single able-bodied man has to come with us and

35:46

go fight in a war they all go fight in a war and

35:50

everybody dies so it's like how

35:54

do you know what is the best thing that's going to happen to you how

35:57

do you know what's the worst we don't have a sense of perspective we're

36:01

ants on a mobius strip right an ant on a mobius strip thinks that it's just walking on a flat surface it doesn't realize that there's got these twists and turns

36:10

and loops we don't know what is the mobius strip

36:13

a mobius strip is basically a loop where you cut it

36:16

put a twist and then put it back together so as you

36:19

travel along the surface of the mobius strip you

36:23

don't realize it but you're actually doing all these twists and it's a much more

36:26

complicated journey it's like the flatlander like you're a two-dimensional creature in a three-dimensional world you don't know you don't know what's the best and what's the worst thing that ever happened to you.

36:36

Yeah. It's just your response to things, you know, it's the, it goes back to sort of like the, the Buddhist adage of, you know, nothing is good or bad, only thinking that makes it so.

36:48

Right. Uh, the other one is a book by John Ronson and it's called, so you've been publicly shamed. Yeah.

36:54

And he goes through the history of what public shaming was and why it was an essential part of keeping communities healthy.

37:02

Okay. Because if someone's acting out in a small community, you

37:06

shame that person to stop the behavior the debtors

37:09

stocks debtors prison the scarlet letter all

37:12

of those things right you publicly shame this person to keep

37:15

everybody else in line but we don't live in these small communities anymore

37:18

but public shaming has just now gotten global right yeah and the

37:21

idea with shame is that i

37:25

mean i don't want to give away the book but basically he follows he follows okay i don't read i don't read he read but i'm not going to read that book so you feel free to give it away.

37:36

He follows like four or five people who have all been very publicly shamed and he follows what they're, or any sort of says, this is what their life was like before.

37:46

This is what happened in their public shaming. And this is what their life looked like afterwards.

37:52

And each of the people reacted to their public shaming very differently.

37:57

And what he sort of deposits in his book is that shame only works if you internalize it.

38:04

And I heard it explained this way. Shame is not a serviceable emotion.

38:10

Feeling shame doesn't actually do anything to make you better. It doesn't do anything to make the world better.

38:16

It's just internalizing all of this pain that you're metastasizing through your body. That's not going to help you at all.

38:23

So shame is not a serviceable emotion. Guilt is very serviceable.

38:28

Guilt says, I did something wrong. I shouldn't have done that. I'm going to learn from this.

38:34

Shame says, I am a bad person. Right.

38:37

So if you internalize the shame that people are putting on you, it'll wreck your life.

38:44

It'll drag you down. And it's also not going to help in any serviceable way.

38:52

So why not shed the idea of shame and accept the idea of guilt? I did something wrong.

38:58

I had behaviors that were not acceptable, that were not beneficial, that were not healthy.

39:06

And I paid a price. Was the price that I paid disproportionate to my behaviors?

39:11

I think so. But does that change the fact that my behaviors were bad and I have to take accountability for that?

39:19

No. So I take accountability for my mistakes.

39:22

I feel guilty about my behavior, but that I can use as fuel to become a better person. Yeah.

39:30

Well, let me, like, I know that you, some things that you did were really dumb and it's Man, talk about someone who sends some crazy texts.

39:41

Get zooks. That is such an understatement. But I also know I have firsthand accounts of truth.

39:51

I also have what I know you to be that I consider to be the truth against some of these accusations or some of these things.

39:59

So my question is, would you like

40:03

I beg you my get out in front and and tell your story as clearly as possible so that everyone can understand exactly the truth.

40:13

And. You haven't done that. You haven't done like the only reason you're doing this is a favor to me.

40:19

And we're talking about recovery and you and I appreciate it.

40:24

And and this wouldn't you wouldn't even have like your best friend grill you on the truth.

40:30

That would be totally inappropriate. Is there going to be a time where you expose yourself to someone and you're like, listen, I'm ready to tell the truth.

40:40

And I want to tell it to someone who is going to be ruthless and trying to get the truth from me.

40:47

Will you get there? Do you want to do that? The short answer is yes, there will.

40:54

I have had opportunities and I've had people ask and I've had people,

41:02

you know, yeah, the short answer to the question is yes,

41:08

there will be a time where that is the right move. Do I feel like that is right now at this moment?

41:16

No. Have there been times before where I thought I have to do this? Yes.

41:22

But if I really dissect what my motivation was in those times where I was like, I have to do this.

41:29

People need to see. People need to hear. Look at my receipts. Look at all these answers. Look at how crazy this is.

41:35

If I really look at why I was reacting like that, I have to come to terms with the fact that that is ego.

41:43

And that is me wanting to be seen. And it's the inner child in me going, you don't understand.

41:48

You don't understand the truth and blah, blah, blah. So

41:51

if I'm, if I

41:54

am accepting and grateful

41:58

for the thorough destruction of my ego, which I am, then I can't be in a place where I'm making decisions based on ego.

42:08

Because then it's a remnant of the old me that I need to let die.

42:14

That guy has to die. And that death has to be thorough.

42:19

ego death behavior death all of those things

42:22

that has to be thorough will there be

42:25

a time where i go you know what this feels right

42:28

now and this is clearly the right move here's

42:31

what i got yes but i have to make sure that that comes

42:35

from the right place or else all i'm doing is holding on to a vine as i'm swinging through the jungle and i get a hold of a new vine which is my new life my new me

42:45

and I'm refusing to let go of that fine. Right. Is

42:50

there, I feel like we got off of one thing that, like I was just saying that I really think that I really admire how Mel Gibson has,

43:00

I haven't met him, but I know that he has,

43:06

I mean, he was publicly shamed and he said some crazy stuff when he was really drunk and it's terrible what he said.

43:12

But he, since then, I know a ton of people and he has helped them when they're struggling.

43:19

And I also know that you are available for people that are struggling.

43:27

We have a mutual friend that you were with and then he ended up dying from his disease.

43:33

And, you know, you were right there. And then we also have friends that you personally have successfully helped.

43:41

And if I had them here, they would say Army Hammer saved my life.

43:46

And so that's something that and just the program we're in part of staying successful is to be of service.

43:56

Is there I know that you're not going to brag about things that you do. I'm trying to is there can you talk a little bit about how important it is to be of service?

44:07

Yeah, I mean, it's maybe the most important thing for me in my life.

44:11

You know, helping

44:14

others, being there for others is

44:18

my way of showing gratitude and my way of carrying forward what was done for me when I was in crisis.

44:29

When I was in full-blown crisis, people showed up for me.

44:33

People showed up in a way that I have never seen people show up outside of a recovery program.

44:40

I don't think humans really do it naturally so much.

44:44

But once you've hit bottom and someone holds their hand out for you and goes, grab my hand.

44:51

It's right here if you want it. I'm not going to grab your hand, but I'm going to hold my hand here.

44:56

And if you want to grab it, you can grab it and I'll help pull you up. It's a great way of putting it. Yeah.

45:01

So now I'm there with my hand out. That's what I am supposed to do.

45:07

It's what helps me the most. It's also what gets me out of myself and out of my own bullshit.

45:13

If I'm having a bad day, I'll call three people and be like, how are you? What's going on with you? What can I do for you?

45:20

And that keeps me healthy. That is something that people could do. It helps.

45:27

It always, if you're asking someone how they're doing, you're out of your head for a few seconds. A few glorious seconds.

45:32

And by the way, you're out of your head for a few seconds. And this is one of my favorite quotes.

45:37

if you're in your head you're in enemy territory yeah because

45:40

that's just going to take you down like that's not on your side you know especially if

45:43

you've got whatever issues you've got like you're

45:47

going to hear some ideas and they'll go hey wouldn't it be a good

45:50

idea to just set everything on fire and you go yeah

45:53

yeah well wait i need to call some people you know remember that guy that we helped that we showed up and he was naked and he was barking and his dog was barking

46:01

yeah he's fine now yeah um do

46:07

you think that there is oh is there um

46:10

is there a person that you look up to that

46:13

has handled something similar to what you've handled is

46:16

there a person that you look up to yeah yeah you know this

46:19

new do you admire in a field of recovery or

46:24

is that giving away names yeah i like so

46:27

this is this is what i would say that pesky anonymity yeah

46:30

uh this is what i would say i want to drop some names

46:33

let's go okay i got i got names no um

46:37

there there's this is a very new

46:40

phenomenon that we're going through right now yeah um

46:43

what recovery cancellation oh yeah you know that that whole thing oh it used to be communist

46:52

is um it's i don't i don't correct correct i mean look you know

46:55

it for sure like the blacklist there

46:58

have been periods in hollywood where that's happening

47:01

but like this is now happening in other jobs across the board right you know it's like you have people who work in corporate america

47:12

who are making some gaffe while having a conversation or putting something on social media that they probably shouldn't who are then being publicly shamed on a massive scale.

47:23

We could be a beer company. This is all this part of it does feel very new.

47:30

And there are people that

47:34

this has happened to that I look at or even sometimes that I've been in contact with where I look at them and I go, respect, respect.

47:46

Like you took a shit storm in your life and you took that shit and you turned it to manure and now you're growing.

47:55

Um, in fact, like if I

47:58

really think about it, I would be hard pressed to find an example of someone who went through something like this and it didn't turn them around.

48:10

like you you'd have to be a pretty particular kind of stupid to get this kind of painful lesson and not learn and i don't know what the life expectancy of that person would be

48:22

because if you take a painful lesson like this to the face right

48:25

you really have two options you stay in whatever place you were in beforehand or you grow and i don't know that there's a middle ground there.

48:39

I can't think of an example

48:42

of someone who got camp

48:45

and maybe, maybe they're out there and maybe I just don't run in circles where maybe I run in circles where people go, wow, I took a painful lesson and I'm using it as fuel.

48:56

It is. It is. I think it's the one thing that I think is great about social media and that, that is part of why I want to do this podcast

49:07

is that there are people that I've never met. Like Anthony Hopkins is really public about his sobriety.

49:13

And I'm like, that guy is the best. And he's also an artist. I'm like, I love being inspired by that guy.

49:19

I just learned Bradley Cooper is sober. Everyone knows like Robert Downey Jr.

49:25

I mean, what an incredible story that is.

49:30

And then the more I learn about

49:33

people that I admire, look up to or respect that have kind of experienced a victory as a result of sobriety, or let's just call it recovery, it blows me away.

49:46

So do you feel like you are running one program that just has a couple of interfaces, or do you feel like you're running several programs at the same time?

49:58

i heard it explained really well by a

50:02

guy who has been in recovery

50:05

for a long time and he said being

50:08

in recovery is like having seven trash cans but

50:12

only five lids oh that's good so you can cover this trash can that's on fire but then that one lights up and you go oh shit okay put that one over there then that one's on fire okay put that lid over there that one you're like

50:23

And now all of a sudden you're playing whack-a-mole, right? But

50:27

I'm

50:30

starting to sort of wrap my head around

50:33

the idea that there

50:38

is a process of self-exploration and growth that goes into the dedication of being in recovery.

50:48

and if you can get to what your core

50:51

wound is and actually get in

50:54

there yeah and figure that out and do the

50:57

painful work that's required there

51:00

is an option for you to have the

51:04

calm life that being in recovery promises us yeah you know it's like i'm in recovery so i can have a life

51:15

I don't necessarily need my life to

51:18

only be recovery if that makes sense I'm very

51:21

much still a work in progress I still make stupid decisions all

51:24

the time yeah especially if I make them in a spur of

51:27

the moment sense like my first thought is always wrong my first instinct will always get me

51:36

in trouble right and i don't

51:39

know if that will ever go away but

51:43

this is painful lessons podcast right like

51:46

if i make one of those stupid decisions again i'm

51:49

in for a painful lesson yeah and if i'm in for a painful

51:52

lesson awesome because i'm still learning i'm still growing like i'm never going to get to the point where i'm an actual zen master i'm never going to get to the point where like i just got my life under control.

52:05

Maybe I will. Maybe it'll take me 40 years. Maybe I've got eight relapses in my future. I don't know.

52:12

But I do know that in the moment, I hate painful lessons.

52:19

I want nothing less than a painful lesson.

52:22

But I know that once I'm removed from the initial

52:28

lesson, I can look back and go, oh, I needed that for X, Y, or Z reason.

52:35

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. What I

52:38

have tried to convince you to focus on writing a screenplay about the story of David, because I think that that's his public or that's such an understatement, his gigantic

52:51

fall that was a result of mistakes that he made. And I think in some ways mirrors some things that you've gone through.

52:59

But I know that you're working on a different. What are you doing right now?

53:03

Like, what do you where are you with your career at this moment?

53:10

In terms of my career as an actor, I'm nowhere.

53:21

I, you know, I further like. Wait, wait, let me explain. Okay. Let me explain. Where am I in terms of my career as an actor?

53:28

I'm nowhere. I'm not getting jobs.

53:33

I'm not getting into rooms to meet with people.

53:35

I am not a viable commodity for the entertainment industry in terms of the Hollywood system.

53:46

I'm not welcome to play in that sandbox for right now. I'm not allowed in that sandbox.

53:55

but I'm an artist. This is what I love to do.

53:58

I have done nothing my adult life except for make films and do plays.

54:05

And it's what makes my soul sing. And it's what makes me happy. And it's what I love.

54:12

It's my passion. It's my art. It's my form of expression.

54:15

So even though I'm not welcome in their sandbox

54:18

i've just decided that i'm

54:22

gonna try to make my own sandbox and if you won't let me play in

54:25

yours i'll go play in mine um i've

54:28

i've written a script with my buddy jerry that you

54:32

actually inspired us to do and were the impetus

54:35

for um we're in the middle of trying to

54:38

put that project together i don't want to go into the details of it right now but we have a script and it's something that we're passionate about and it's something that i'm gonna go do

54:47

And I don't know what the future of that's going to look like. I don't know what the response to that is going to be. But those are things that are out of my control.

54:54

I'm powerless over what people's response to it is going to be, essentially. But I can go do something that I'm passionate about.

55:02

Just because they tell me I can't do it doesn't mean that I have to believe them.

55:08

Yeah, there are other ways to get things done. Yeah. You should say that the script mirrors your life. It does.

55:15

I mean, so it's also been a kind of a therapy for you. Yeah. Writing this script has been incredibly cathartic.

55:20

I took, we, me and Jerry took a

55:24

original piece of source material that was then turned into a film, uh, that we looked at and said, you know, there's a lot of parallels here.

55:34

I'll be at some more subtle, some more overt, but there's a lot of parallels here.

55:40

So we took that and made it much more autobiographical.

55:45

Um, and adapted it so

55:48

that it would be something that is

55:52

cathartic, you know, and I gotta say working

55:57

on a script and writing was, was just as fulfilling in terms of using creative muscles as being on a set was.

56:09

And in some ways more, you know, this is ours. We can do whatever the fuck we want with this. Um, and it's something that we're really proud of.

56:16

And so hopefully we'll get this, we'll get this thing going. I hope you do.

56:23

I feel like the, I don't even think that I'm there, by the way, there's no segue.

56:30

I'm not, I'm just going to sit like I was watching the news today. And, um, in New York, there's a mob of people

56:38

standing in front of the Nova exhibit and

56:41

they're shouting at the

56:45

Jewish people there and they're saying the most atrocious things and I

56:48

it's like such an interesting like I feel that we're I I feel that it's like a time in the world it's like everything is just so completely unexpected

57:00

and severe. And there's such, like, there's just such a need for love.

57:07

And just, you know, not everyone needs to be in a program, but just the idea of a recovery and a reduction of resentments.

57:18

Like, I just feel that if your story can help anyone,

57:24

it will be exciting. it will be it will just

57:28

if if what you've been through and i know that you're gonna you'll this isn't the last time you'll tell your story and i've seen your story help people i hope that this

57:38

interview helps people um hey thanks man thanks

57:41

for coming one last thing i want to say is and

57:45

i and i i i i said this before but like i can't express this enough when a painful lesson is going on in your life, it sucks.

57:55

There's no way around that. It really does suck.

58:03

But what you decide to do with that, you're at a crossroads, right?

58:08

And you can either take a road from

58:11

your painful lesson where you learn nothing and only get more angry at the world, and the world doesn't become a better place and the world becomes in a way through perception, right.

58:23

Even more hostile towards you, or you can be at that crossroads and go,

58:29

wow, why did this happen? What do I need to learn from this situation?

58:36

And you can take the high road and that high road is not going to be smooth sailing.

58:41

And in fact, I genuinely believe that if

58:46

you handle painful lessons well the universe god whatever it is goes nice he learned his lesson

58:53

let's keep teaching them and you will have more painful lessons

58:56

along the way you're never done with your painful lessons that's

58:59

just not how life works but that higher

59:03

road that you take i pray that every single person who takes that road gets the same perspective that i have where

59:12

they become grateful for their painful lessons rock bottom is like and

59:16

and desperation who would have

59:19

thought they would be a good thing but they are if you can use them the

59:22

right way you can't bounce till you hit bottom yeah um

59:25

do you have any regrets your whole thing is about not having regrets but i don't think that would i mean i feel like i don't have resentments do i have regrets

59:36

sure were there things in my life that happened that i could have used as a painful lesson

59:45

absolutely would they have been more subtle yes

59:48

were there things along the way where i

59:51

had an opportunity to go oh i might need to change

59:54

my behavior yeah but i didn't see it i

59:57

didn't feel it it wasn't enough it's almost like i got slapped in the face and it didn't affect me then i got

1:00:05

punched in the face and it didn't affect me then i

1:00:08

got hit in the head with a baseball bat and it didn't affect me

1:00:11

and then someone up there in

1:00:14

this cosmic design of the whole thing went he's still

1:00:17

not getting it like what else do we have to do all

1:00:22

right drop a bomb on him and i got a bomb dropped on me yeah i i meet people in recovery who have much higher bottoms than i have

1:00:33

and part of me looks at them and is jealous and i look at them and go fuck

1:00:36

you learned your lesson from that little thing and now that

1:00:39

little thing changed your life i

1:00:43

i i couldn't see things that subtle right because

1:00:46

i was drunk and i was high and i was acting like an idiot all the time and part of me had justified it by saying everything in my life is awesome i'm making a ton of money

1:00:58

I've got all this success. I've got all this attention. I've got all this, whatever, like, Ooh, a little stumble there, but look at that. I got through it.

1:01:05

Cause I'm awesome. But that little stumble could have, and maybe should have been enough for me to go, Ooh, I need to course correct.

1:01:12

But I didn't. So I wouldn't say that I have regrets, but sometimes I'm jealous of people who have higher bottoms.

1:01:19

Like I, I, I heard a guy

1:01:22

talking about it, like immediately get their jobs back then

1:01:26

i like they they let's say they have some type

1:01:29

of fallout and they get their jobs back oh if i would have learned any

1:01:32

of those subtle lessons along the way i

1:01:36

would still have all my jobs but i

1:01:39

know that right now i'm not supposed to have had all of those jobs right because that would have kept me in that place that i'm very grateful to be removed from.

1:01:52

Peace out. Peace. Peace out. We're done.

EXCLUSIVE: Armie Hammer FINALLY BREAKS SILENCE!